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August 5, 2022 French

Paul Barril : « Le crime profite aux terroristes du FPR qui représentent seulement 10 % de la population. Ces gens-là ne pourront jamais avoir le pouvoir au Rwanda, au moins par les urnes »

Card Number 29812

Bilalian, Daniel
Caumont, Carole
Pelé, Patrice
Duquesne, Benoît
28 juin 1994
Time zone
Journal de 13 heures
Paul Barril : « Le crime profite aux terroristes du FPR qui représentent seulement 10 % de la population. Ces gens-là ne pourront jamais avoir le pouvoir au Rwanda, au moins par les urnes »
Des accrochages ont eu lieu hier encore [27 juin] à une dizaine de kilomètres de Kibuye sans que l'on sache très bien s'il s'agit d'éléments infiltrés du FPR ou des miliciens hutu qui continuent leur chasse aux Tutsi dans la forêt.
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- Starting point of the tragedy in Rwanda: the death of the President of Rwanda whose plane was shot down on his arrival in Kigali on 6 April. Captain Barril, the former boss of GIGN, claims to have the plane's black box and other evidence. He is our guest. - The tragedy in Rwanda began very precisely on April 6, immediately after the plane crash at Kigali airport which cost the lives of the President of Rwanda and his colleague from Burundi. Many people now believe that it was an attack, but the civil war that broke out immediately afterwards pushed this event into the background. Except for one man: the former boss of the GIGN, the captain of the gendarmerie Barril, who claims to be in possession of the famous black box of this plane. And who proves it because here are filmed this morning these famous black boxes. - Daniel Bilalian interviews Paul Barril, in duplex from Nice: Daniel Bilalian: - "Mr. Barril, can you describe these images to us, what do we see there?". Paul Barril ["Pdg société 'Secrets'"]: - "So we see one of the items that belongs to the wreckage of the plane with a black metal box and inscriptions in English. And we see a piece of the cabin where is fixed this element. And also the inscriptions 'Falcon 50' on it. And with the years of the controls and the assembly of this box". Daniel Bilalian: - "And the evidence of this attack is contained both in these black boxes and in these recordings, in your opinion?". Paul Barril: - "Yes. And we have other elements since we also recovered the SAM-7 launchers". - Let's go back to this day of April 6 and the circumstances of this accident to fully understand the importance of all of this information. A little after 8:30 p.m. on April 6. The plane bringing the Rwandan President back to Kigali was just about to land when it was shot down by two rockets before it even reached the runway. President Juvénal Habyarimana and the President of Burundi accompanying him are killed in the disaster. To date, nearly three months after the events and despite troubling circumstances, no official investigation has yet been opened. - However, the affair is relaunched after the revelations that occurred yesterday [in the newspaper Le Monde]: ex-captain Barril, former commander of the GIGN, claims to hold the black box of the device whose the authorities had until then always denied the existence. Paul Barril charged by the family of the Rwandan President, currently taking refuge in France, to lead the investigation into the attack pending possible legal consequences. Maître Hélène Clamagirand, lawyer for the family: "We are examining the documents in the file and we will work to prepare a complaint before the court which will prove competent". - Paul Barril also says he has had contact with the French government in recent weeks. Foreign Minister Alain Juppé said yesterday for his part that he had at no time been informed of the existence of a private investigation into this affair. - Were these famous black boxes that we always talk about in the event of a plane crash, yes or no, inside the plane of the President of Rwanda? Not everyone agrees. - All aircraft of all airlines have flight recorders on board. It is the international aeronautical federation which obliges airlines to equip themselves as soon as there is passenger transport. On board these planes, there are two types of recorders: the cockpit voice recorder which records all the conversations of the crew whether with the ground or more personal dialogues, when the captain discusses with the co-pilot for example . Next comes the flight recorder, the famous black box. Inside, all the parameters of the aircraft, altitude, engine power, speed, are carefully recorded. This is technical memory. - For a private aircraft, things change radically: the owner of the aircraft is not required to install flight recorders. The transport of people is done without a ticket, the international aeronautical federation cannot impose anything. However, it happens that security-conscious owners ask when buying the device or afterwards the break of recorders. - In the case of the Falcon 50 of the President of Rwanda, Dassault Aviation affirms that during the last technical inspection of the plane at Le Bourget [October 13, 1993], no flight recorder was seen in the plane. Were they precisely posed afterwards? Captain Paul Barril claims to have found them. Today, he shows them. - Daniel Bilalian resumes his interview with Paul Barril: - "Paul Barril, you allowed us to film these black boxes. Some deny the existence of these black boxes. You, how can you prove that they are real?". Paul Barril: - "What was presented is one of the elements that we recovered on the spot, which belong to the wreckage of the plane. And the serial numbers on it show that it does indeed belong to the Falcon 50. I am not an aeronautical specialist. We also found other elements of the aircraft's carcass in the vicinity of the area where it was dislocated by the attack. But we have d "other elements: for example I am in possession of the three tapes of the control tower where there are all the conversations of the day. And in particular the conversations between the pilots and the control tower". Daniel Bilalian: - "Who gave you these black boxes and all of these documents? You were charged with an investigation, we understand, by the family. You found them there, we discounts, how did it go?". Paul Barril: - "We have been tasked with an investigation but we are dealing with the two heads of state at the same time because you have to know that there is a gap at the international level, that there is no investigation for the moment, that there is nobody. There is no organization, there is not a judge who has been appointed. And to have recovered this and the other material evidence that we have, I went there. I went to the airport in particularly difficult war zones. And I can tell you that there was no competition there because I was alone". Daniel Bilalian: - "In these recorded conversations, because with regard to black boxes you need special equipment, you have them but you have not been able to decrypt them for the moment, you keep them at the disposal of justice?". Paul Barril: - "We trust justice because it is a serious attack. In Lockerbie, it was 320 dead. UTA's DC-10 is 170. There it is two heads of state, three Frenchmen plus two gendarmes and a wife who were killed afterwards. And as a corollary and as a result more than 500,000 dead! But this is something extraordinary. Those who devised this plan must terrorist, those who helped it, those who carried it out and ordered it, we have to find them and we have to bring them before a court and we have to judge them. They are responsible for the genocide". Daniel Bilalian: - "In these recorded conversations, what can we detect? What did you hear?". Paul Barril: - "Already I believe that Le Monde is particularly well informed because there have been other conversations. There were conversations between the captain and his wife, who had a small radio. We were worried about the presence, where we seemed to be trying to ensure the presence of the head of state of Burundi. I don't want to go into what's inside. We will hand him over to justice when a complaint will be filed soon. Hélène Clamagirand is in charge of that. I am in charge of gathering the material elements. And we have many. We also have satellite photos of the Kigali area on the evening of the plane attack, but also of the Uganda-Rwanda border, where we see trucks rushing en masse to attack Rwanda and the forces legal government". Daniel Bilalian: - "What you mean is that there is a coincidence between the attack and the start of the RPF offensive, the rebels?" Paul Barril: - "It is a generalized aggression which began with the assassination of two Heads of State". Daniel Bilalian: - "So this assassination, it was claimed in certain Belgian newspapers that it was white men who had fired these famous missiles. Do the recorded conversations give an idea of ​​the nationality of the mercenaries who were able to operate?". Paul Barril: - "It is true that the Rwandan government forces recorded several operational radio conversations on the spot. The RPF terrorists have advisers and instructors who speak English but also with conversations, with an accent that inevitably directs us towards Belgium". Daniel Bilalian: - "It is serious what you are saying Paul Barril! In these recorded conversations between the control tower and the plane, is there a Belgian accent?". Paul Barril: - "No, no. Only on technical points where we ask who are the people on board the plane". Daniel Bilalian: - "In your opinion, what is the origin of these mercenaries and for whom do they act?". Paul Barril: - "Who benefits from the crime? The crime benefits the RPF terrorists who represent only 10% of the population. These people will never be able to have power in Rwanda, at least through the ballot box. A man, one voice, like in South Africa". Daniel Bilalian: - "Against French interests, Paul Barril?". Paul Barril: - "Yes, because I remind you that until April 6, France was present on the spot. And I would like to say something that no one has published: I went to the French Embassy there The French Embassy was targeted by the Katiushkas and also by the missiles and mortars of 120 RPF terrorists. And several shots were fired at the French Embassy in an area residential, very voluntarily to show the hatred that there is vis-à-vis France". Daniel Bilalian: - "Last question: according to your revelations that you made to the newspaper Le Monde, white mercenaries were taken by the government of Rwanda into its internal exile. Would he use them as hostages?". Paul Barril: - "No. The legal government, no, not at all. They have no mercenaries. Those who have mercenaries are the Tutsis of the RPF, the terrorist groups who themselves are supported by cadres. And I would like to remind you all the same that these people, who are aggressors and who are a band of terrorists, are supported by a State". Daniel Bilalian: - "Do you realize that for the moment, for the most part, the Tutsi are considered to be the victims of this genocide? And that you are going completely against Paul Barril's current". Paul Barril: - "No. Listen, I'm going to tell you this: there are 7,000,000 people in Rwanda. There are 10% Tutsi, which makes 700,000 people. There are 500,000 who have been victims of genocide. There would be 200,000 left without counting the various camps in Tanzania. The few that remain are those who occupy three quarters of the country and who broke the 27 battalions of the Rwandan army. You see, for the little that remains. So on the ground, that's not the reality at all. And we see a very large disinformation operation, a bit like Timişoara".
- Humanitarian operations are continuing in Rwanda: France is setting up a food distribution center and several medical cells. Medical evacuations and specific actions on the ground are also continuing, with this morning the evacuation of 35 Rwandan nuns, as well as Belgian, British and American nuns who were in danger.
- French helicopters in the early morning above Lake Kivu which separates Zaire from Rwanda. This is the first major evacuation operation organized by the French. Kibuye objective. There, they know that about forty nuns have been waiting for this moment for weeks: Americans, English, Belgians and Rwandans, they fled the Kigali massacres to take refuge in their convent in Kibuye. Very quickly the situation deteriorated again: threats, checks, ban on housing Tutsis, mock executions. A Rwandan Sister: "Men came, they told us that we were looking for the enemy, the supporters of the RPF. Because there were Tutsi, there are Tutsi Sisters. But we did not touch the Sisters".
- In view of the prayers of the Sisters, the soldiers had decided four days ago to set up a small detachment in Kibuye to protect them. This morning, they therefore chose to evacuate them as well as five orphans. It must be said that the situation in Kibuye remains tense. Clashes took place again yesterday [June 27] about ten kilometers from the city without it being known very well whether they were infiltrated elements of the RPF or whether it was the Hutu militiamen who continued their hunt for Tutsi in the forest.
- Another team of our special envoys went to a region which has not yet been visited by French troops and where Hutu refugees are still in a situation of great danger this time.
- We are halfway between the most advanced French troops in Rwanda and the front. To get here, it was necessary to cross 23 roadblocks over 75 kilometres, all controlled as much by Hutu civilians as by the government army. The French military have not yet explored the area, far from paved roads and at an altitude of more than 3,000 meters.
- At the end of the track, perched on a hill away from everyone, a refugee camp also of the Hutu ethnic group. Yet they were placed there by government forces, without food, without help. 12,000 refugees are scattered in this camp located at the top of several hills, most of which are inaccessible. For two months that this camp exists, Augustin would like to see the French troops arrive with food. But he asks for more. Augustin: - "We want the French army to come to Rwanda and the RPF to return to Uganda. If it returns to Uganda, we can return home". The journalist: - "Does that mean that the French army would make war on the RPF?". Augustin: - "If necessary!".
- Confusion in the idea of ​​this humanitarian mission, orchestrated by the military. These refugees expect a lot from French soldiers. Refugees in their own camp, their own country.
- In Rwanda, the Catholic community is very important, in both ethnic groups, Hutu and Tutsi. This is why the French religious authorities dispatched Monsignor Etchegaray to the scene.
- He arrived in the greatest discretion and he is waiting to be allowed to cross the border of Rwanda at war. He is the special envoy of Pope John Paul II, the French Cardinal Etchegaray. His visit is not only pastoral, it is also diplomatic. Roger Etchegaray: "I come from Gisenyi where I also met the government authorities. I appealed for peace. The important thing is to know what we are doing for peace".
- In this civil war in Rwanda, the Church was particularly targeted. Roger Etchegaray, addressing a framed crowd: "What horror to have seen churches, which normally are refuges of peace and prayer, become, I dare to use the word, slaughterhouses of innocent people! Stop all these massacres! Life is precious! The life of every man, whoever he is! Whether Hutu, whether Tutsi, white or black!".
- The visit of Cardinal Etchegaray has already allowed a first step: if the RPF still refuses to meet its enemies, it accepts the mediation of the Vatican and it reconsiders its condemnation of the French intervention. Alexis Kanyarengwe, "President of the F.P.R." : "Humanitarian action is always a very good thing and we support it. And if France respects its commitments, we do not oppose it".
- They sing for peace even if the war and the massacres continue. They are all refugees, survivors.
- Latest information about Rwanda: Mr. Léotard, the Minister of Defense, will tomorrow be among the French troops based on the Zaire border.